Cheebs -
Don't you think tempered cocoa butter will work a little differently? My understanding is that the crystals in Mycryo are pretty much all Form VI which accounts for their "aggressiveness" in setting up.
I don't have much experience using Mycryo in pastry, just in savory.
:: Clay
Can regular cocoa butter be used in place of Mycryo?
For instance, to set a fruit mousse or a cold cheesecake. Instead of using gelatin I have used Mycryo, however it is very expensive. Thanks .
Hi,
Is there such a thing as a small machine that will package chocolate bars in foil and paper wrappers? What I've seen online is huge machines that do large volumes or instructions on how to wrap by hand. I'm wondering if there's a small scale version of a machine to do the chocolate packaging.
Thanks,
Geetha
Hi Folks,
A few quick questions about Cemoi couverture,
Thanks,
Stu
Thanks for the tips. I'll try them this weekend. TheChicago house co-op is a great idea 
. I still seem to be having trouble when using the seed method to temper.I get the temperature up to about 115 Fthen use 20%by weight for seeding which helps drop the temperature to about 95 F but it takes forever (orit just seems like it )for the temperature to drop down to 80F (Then I bring it back up to 86 F to work with it). Any tips on helping the chocolate cool faster?
Hi Jo-Ellen,
I live near the Minn/Wis border, and I'm going to strongly encourage you, as others have, to take a class at either the French Pastry School or Callebaut Chocolate Academy, both in Chicago. I've taken classes both places, and they are both excellent, friendly, and immensely helpful. (Anyone want to start a student housing co-op for chocolate students in Chicago?)
I'd also agree with others on the melt by microwave option. It's much faster (pretty much blister free). I have a microwave that has a hotspot (maybe all of them do, I don't know). So I melt 30-40 seconds at a time at first, stirring between, and then 20-30 secs. as I go. Once you have chocolate melted, you can temper it via seeding, and then use a heat pack (from your local Walgreens) that you warm in the microwave to keep it workable for longer. Or, you can zap the bowl back in the microwave for 5-10 seconds at a time and stir, to keep it workable longer also.
of advice and the support - Jo-Ellen
Thanks so much for the reply -
I'm glad I'm not crazy in thinking it was taking way too long to temper my chocolate, whew I'll try the heat gun trick next time the chocolate gets to thick. I would love to take a class unfortunately I live in central Wisconsin, not exactly a booming metropolis. I have been musing over the idea of looking for a course in Milwaukee or Chicago. It seems like to way to go at this point. Again, Thanks for the help. Jo-Ellen
I agree with Gap's comments and have a few other comments to add. Two hours to temper is way too long and you are definitely over-tempered. Once your chocolate is within your working temperature it should be more fluid than you are describing.
The solution to your problem may not be the end product (i.e. too thick chocolate). Make sure you are melting out your chocolate to a high enough temp to melt out all the crystals prior to beginning the tempering process. If you don'tdo this you will absolutely be over crystalized at your working temperature. If you are stirring for the entire 2 hours, then you will also be over crystalized. What kind of bowl are you melting your chocolate in? Glass will hold heat much longer than metal or a plastic bowl (for microwave only).
One other suggestion for once your chocolate is tempered and you are trying to maintain it's fluidity/working temperaturebesides the heat gun (although I have a heat gun and like it)is to use a microwave. It will take you a time or two to figure out what works time-wise. On my microwave I will put the bowl in for 5-6 seconds on 50% power. Sometimes it needs a bit less and sometimes a bit more but the microwave is a very effective way control the temperature within a few degrees.
As for adding cocoa butter, I don't recommend this as a solution. You can and will figure out how to correctly temper chocolate so that is has fluidity. I think adding cocoa butter is like adding a bandaid and it doesn't solve the issue.
I don't do large molds and have never had the need to put my smaller molds (individual bonbons) in the fridge. It sounds like at your working temperature that you don't need to put them in the fridge unless you are doing large pieces.
I also think taking a class is a good idea. If you live in a large town/city you could even hire someone for a lesson. Call around either to chocolate shops or bakeries and find someone with some experience.
Good luck and you WILL master tempering!
Andrea
Everyone has their own opinions on things like this, but I'll have a go at answering for you:
1. 2 hours sounds way too long. I temper 3-4 kilos of chocolate using the seed method in about 15-20 minutes. I'm sure there's others out there who do it faster as well.
2. Chocolate is over-tempered when it is in temper, but is very thick and doesn't flow well. Use a heat gun (eg., paint stripper from the hardware store or a hair-dryer) on the chocolate for 5-10 seconds at a time while stirring to get the chocolate fluid again. You don't want to heat the chocolate too much or else you will knock it out of temper and have to re-temper it.
3. Sounds like it's over-tempered and you'll need some sort of heat gun on it
4. This one depends - usually on your room temperature and the size of your moulds. I think cooling too slowly or too quickly can cause "blooming" issues. The idea is to find the right middle ground. I always put large moulds (eg., large Easter egg) into the fridge, but smaller moulds (eg., individual bon bons) I allow to cool at room temperature.
It sounds like you're at a stage where taking some sort of class would be a huge benefit - actually seeing someone working with the chocolate and seeing how it should look (eg., how fluid) and a professional's technique for moulding. Given you've taught yourself so much already, you would probably pick up everything very quickly in an environment where you saw it all happening.
Hi - I am relatively new to making chocolates and have learned through books and the internet. 80% of the time my chocolates turn out very wellbutI am at the point where Icould really usesome sage advice to help refine my process. If you could help me out I'd really appreciate it.
1. It often takes me 2hrs to hand temper about 2 lbs of chocolate using the seeding method. Is it normal to take so long? The room temp is 68 F and I'm getting blisters from stirring.
2. How do you know if your chocolate is over-tempered? What is the best way to correct over-tempered chocolate?
3. My chocolateappears (to me at least) to get very thick when it finally gets into temper (I always do a temper test before using it) and then because of its viscosity it gets very had to mold into shells. I've tried adding cocoa butter. Any other remedies you could recommend?
4. I have read that molded shells should be put in the fridge to set and I've read to absolutely not use the fridge. I've read that coolng chocolate to fast causes bloom but I've also read that cooling chocolate to slow also causes bloom. Which is correct? What is the best way to mold shells?
Thanks, Jo-Ellen
Hi Mickey,
I totally agree with Brad, a proper business plan is a must. I did write and implement a few of them in my previous career before turning to chocolate and they included a few extra zeros compared with our current artisanal bean-2-bar chocolate project.
Also agree with an earlier comment: a decent business plan allows you to tap into bank / investors which can make all the difference between day dreaming about your company and actually getting it started.
Having said that the investment and monthly spend figures that you quoted are small but not unrealistic as such, but it's just impossible to say without the other side of the equation:
How much are you selling your products for?
Based on that, how much margin are you making on each unit you are selling (leaving aside fixed costs)?
How many units are you going to sell?
If you find out that your number of units x margin per unit eventually covers your fixed costs you're on the right track. I sometimes see people getting fixated on the margin % without thinking of the production numbers, which are just as important: say you are making a 100% margin on reindeer-shaped chocolates you import from northern Latvia, they cost you 1USD and you sell them for 2, that's a really good margin, but, assuming it takes you time and effort to source and sell your wares, unless you know for sure you can sell a couple thousands of them per month you're probably better off keeping your day job.
Cheers,
Sam
Mickey;
I don't want to sound like a jerk, so please don't take my comment here as such.
Starting ANY business needs planning and estimating up front. 80% of small businesses FAIL in the first 12 months because the owner is either "too busy" to take the time to plan, or is completely disillusioned as to the amount of work in starting a venture.
The spreadsheet I described in detail how to set up in my first post is an absolute necessity for the following reasons:
1. It creates a list of everything you are going to spend money on.
2. It keeps it organized
3. It provides you with a roadmap of goals.
4. It allows you to evaluate whether or not your business is going to be successful before you spend a single dime.
I've personally done a few proforma's only to find that the numbers didn't work. A little work up front saved me several hundred thousand dollars!
I may have the prior experience, and can do a lot of this in my head, but believe it or not, on Saturday evening I was out in the mountains camping, had my laptop by the fire, and was doing EXACTLY what I just described for you to do, in order to estimate the costs of opening my next location.
In my opinion, whether you're spending $1,000 or $100,000, you need to formulate a plan and some "what if's". The spreadsheet I described allows you to do just that.
The equipment list that Clay is asking you to provide is PART of that spreadsheet.
Cheers, and best of luck to you.
Brad
Mickey:
Without going into too much detail (i.e., specific equipment names/brands - unless you want to share) can you give us a breakdown of where you're spending that $50/100K?
So -
Just curious to see what the relative allocation of costs is.
:: Clay
BTW: There are no startup calculators/books that cover this topic specifically, though Pam Williams may go over it in her classes at Ecole Chocolat.
Ahhhh... Where to start??? Having done this before, started numerous entrepreneurial ventures (some successful and some not), the best place to start is with a spreadsheet and an "ideal" vision of what you would like your business to look like, including location. Columns = Months and Rows = costs and revenues.
Once you've got your spreadsheet laid out, brainstorm a list of ALL the equipment you can envision in your ideal business. Research the prices, and delivery times, and plot them in your 1st 6 months of your spreadsheet. Be sure to include such things as signage, business cards, your first packaging order, kitchen tools, sheet pans, molds, tables, fridges, ribbon, bows, labels, display cases/stands, tempering machines, a food processor, a mixer, bowls, and plastic containers for product, sheet pans, sheet pan lids, and the list goes on and on.
Then create a list of everything you will need to open your "store" - costs such as 1st month's rent, damage deposit, leashold improvements, signage, chairs, utility deposits (gas, electricity, etc).
These and your equipment costs go in your "up front costs". You can plot your expenses in the first 6 months as you incur them, for budgeting purposes, but you will still need to record them.
Plot your spreadsheet in such a way that your everyday business expenses actually "start" 6 months after you start spending money (expenses such as staff labour, rent, utilities, telephone, internet, permits, etc). You need to do this because, quite often chocolate equipment comes from different areas of the world, and can take as long as 3 months to arrive. Beans are often 2-3 months out (again depending on the size of the order). You also need to account for your time. Start "billing" your company the minute you start working on it, and this includes the 6 months prior to opening. After all, you can't live for free while you're getting started. You TOO need a salary/wage.
Plot out ALL of the expenses you can think of in your "IDEAL" business vision. Only then can you determine how much product you need to sell in order to create a sustainable business. Helpful "standard" numbers in the food industry are as follows: Labour cost: 35-40%, Food cost: 30% (Chocolate industry is a bit lower - say about 25%)
In my opinion this is the only way you are really going to know what it will cost to set up your business.
Once this is complete, you can then determine what you need to order, make, and sell as product. It will also give you an idea of how many staff you will need to do so.
If you are looking for investment capital from friends, family, or financial institutions, they will all want to see these numbers to make sure you're organized, and to make sure their money is going to the right place.
I did this for my first location, and have to do it for EVERY location I open. I'm going through this exact exercise this week for another location I'm opening. Every location has different costs to open, and this is why I have to do it.
Cheers.
I hope this helps.
Brad
This is in response to another discussion that was started over in the Classifieds group asking about the cost of setting up a small confectionery kitchen.
There is a lot of interest in making chocolate from beans, both in-country and out. There are many challenges, not least of which is securing the necessary equipment. It's easy and relatively inexpensive to find equipment for the kitchen hobbyist making 5lb-5kg batches.
It's also easy (but expensive) to find equipment that can be used to make large batches (1MT) at a time.
However, it's not so easy to find equipment for most everything in between that is both affordable and where each piece is scaled to the same throughput.
Yes, there are "turn key" systems you can purchase that are scaled properly. These might cost anywhere from $80-100k on the low end, for a system roughly capable of up to 50 kg/day up to 100,000 Euros for something capable of producing between 250-400kg/day.
It's also possible to piece together systems using a combination of commercially available machinery and home-grown pieces where needed, but this requires a certain mechanical ingenuity that not everyone possesses or has the patience for.
Jim Lucas over in the thread in Classifieds , asked about what it takes to produce in-country (in Jim's case, Brazil).
New member James Swanwick asked a very good related question , which is how much does it cost to produce a single bar of chocolate. Another way to ask this question - which may be more useful - is, "What is the minimum level of production (and sales) you need to get to in order to have a real (i.e., sustainable) business?
I am really looking forward to the discussion on this.
Having trouble finding any industry research on profit margins.
In a nutshell: I want to know what it costs to make a bar of chocolate and put a wrapper on it.
Yes, there are 100 variables. But if anyone has any case studies on profit margins, would appreciate the info. Thanks!
I am in Montana and have been looking at commercial kitchen space recently and it ranges here from $15/hour up to $40/hour. Prices can vary widely and, of course,verify the kitchen it "legal" with the Health Dept.
FYI - most if not all states prohibit food production from a home ktichen. You can consider setting up a kitchen that meets code in a garage or basement space.
Good luck!
Hello Chocolate Lifers ;^) I'm a new subscriber, starting a chocolate business, and have tons of questions to ask. I'm in New Mexico, where the health codes prohibit any food production for salefrom the home - I have to work in an approved kitchen. I know that renting time in a commercial kitchen is one way many people get their start. Can anyone give me an idea of what to expect to pay to use someone else's kitchen during their off hours? I expect that these arrangements are often based on personal connections, and might vary widely depending on where you are. I'm currently working out of a kitchen incubator that charges an hourly rate that is too high for my operation to handle, as my production and sales are still very small. Any ideas on what a comparable cost might be would be helpful. $300/month? $500? $10/hr?
TIA for your insights,
Steve Whitman
Choco Canyon Artisan Chocolate
Jeff:
I set up a country page and made you the editor ... you'll have to sign up for an account and let's talk about what the page should contain.
http://www.discoverchocolate.com/wikilists/doku.php
:: Clay
Sounds good Clay. I can be a resource for all chocolate things Ecuador.
Jeff
Clay,
Sounds like a good addition to the cacau/chocolate community. I'm looking forward to "just the facts man, just the facts" . Count me in when you kick off.
Jim Lucas
For some time, I've been striving to maintain databases of chocolate makers, blogs, and more and have been frustrated with the lack of good tools for doing this (i.e., flexible database tools that did not require huge amounts of expensive customization).
Therefore, I've decided to change things up and open things up and start something that could eventually become " the Wikipedia of Chocolate " (and be much more useful).
TheChocolateLife Resource Wiki is not a place to engage in discussions or make blog posts.It's a place to aggregate resources for community access. At the moment there are sections for Chocolatiers (chocolate makers), Confectioners, Blogs, Cocoa Merchants, References, and more. As the Wiki grows, it will include more categories.
If this is a project you'd like to get involved with, I am interested in working with people who are interested in becoming section editors. Let me know.
As with any Wiki, the respect of the community is vital. It's not a place to flame. For the most part I am interested in collecting facts - opinions can be expressed here on TheChocolateLife.
Please note that your ChocolateLife login will not work automatically on the Wiki. You'll be asked to create a new account.
:: Clay
I must agree with you, I don't like Lecithin for a number of reasons.
1. Aesthetic
2. Allergen sensitivity.
3. It usually solvent extracted with hexane. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hexane http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lecithin http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soybean_oil
I suspect its most commonly used by big chocolate to enable mass production machinery to be used with cheapened indredients.
Haha! Well said Omar.
I apologize if those reading this think I was being competitive. The reason I provided stats is because it's easy to hide behind anonymity and"talk the talk" on the Internet having not actually accomplished anything. At least Marco admitted that he doesn't actually "make" his chocolate. Thank you for your honesty Marco.
I too agree with not using any other fat than Cocoa Butter (well, except for the milk fat present in powdered milk for milk chocolate). I also agree with using an ingredient like lecithin if it's necessary.
As I've repeated, I believe that business is about making profit. If it isn't, then I challenge whomever questions this philosophy to stop being a hypocrite and stop charging money for their wares. Unless of course I'm missing something, and everyone out there in chocolate land is independently wealthy.
Cheers Omar. Thanks for the tip on Amonium Phosphatide.
Brad
wooha! things are heatin up here, chocolate is melting
Marco I agree with not using any other fat but cocoa butter, however I don't see anything wrong with the use of soy Lecithin. At the end of the day, it's your baby, you decide what baby wears. Alot of chocolatiers use much worse ingredients than all of us and still there product is classified under "chocolate". And if this chocolate did not have a market it sure would not exist. I mean I can't see myself listening to justin beiber, yet beiber has thousands of fans. I can't compare beiber's music to daft punk either coz the genre is completely different. Just like music, you have the mainstream and the indie chocolate.Anyway you both make valid points (besides the muscle flexing) and that's the beauty behind the variety in chocolate abd its ingredients.
It seems like it's a competition between us two, judging from your words. Can't add anything more, we have different views. Anyway, 38.000 customers in three years probably are enough to buy you a fancy sport car, and if you are happy with that it's ok.
I still don't like the idea of using soy lecithin (or any other fat other than cocoa butter) in the chocolate, nothing wrong with this, I hope. Also, I would never use Lindt to compare the quality of a good chocolate...
One point we agree on is that education is key, and that is something we have incorporated into our business model in the form of evening chocolate tastings and wine pairings. I host an average of 10 per month - both private and public - and they are usually sold out a month in advance. Tonight it was for 12 people in my shop, and on Thursday it will be a presentation to 250 people at an awards dinner.
You've found your niche selling chocolate that has won European awards, and that's great. Others have found their niche selling what they claim to be "healthy raw chocolate". Good for them too.
What I know is that tonight (as is what happens during most of my seminars), most people who walk through our doors in love with Lindt 70% actually spit it out in disgust after tasting ours. Here's a link to a blog post:
http://laurenzietsman.wordpress.com/2010/12/28/a-visit-to-choklat/
Here's another quote from a customer review on www.UrbanSpoon.com :
" When I walked through the doors of Choklat, I thought Lindt Excellence 70% was a good bar. An hour later I was actually spitting it out into a napkin! It was terrible! I've NEVER spit out chocolate before!"
As you can see, education is a focus of ours. However, for us it still doesn't really matter how many awards a chocolate has won in another country and the +/-10 people who have "passed judgement" on it to grant those awards. Cumulatively, they'll never buy enough chocolate to float my business. What reallymatters to me as the business owneris the 38,000 customers who have purchased our products in the past 3 years. Those 38,000 customers pay the bills and spread the word!
My advice to any business owner thinking of entering their chocolate / confections into a competition: "Be careful. Your results can backfire on you. What if you lose? What if your products get poor reviews? What kind of damage can the words of amere handful of peopledo to your business? Is that kind of damaging publicity really worth the risk?"
Marco, you are a reseller of other people's creations, so it's helpful for you to use awards such as what you've mentioned as part of your sales pitch. THere are a lot of great confections, and chocolate out there made by people who don't enter competitions. In fact there's a lot of chocolate out there BETTER than those who have won the competitions you mentioned. A competition is only as credible as the entries, and if not all the worthy competitors enter, it's not that credible. However the average consumer doesn't know that, so it's easy to play on it as a marketing strategy.
In the end, it's nice that the market is big enough for everybody. However, I'd bet my fancy sportscar that if you and I were the only players on the block I'd win. The secret is STILL to find out what people want, and then give it to them.
Cheers and Best Wishes.
Brad
Hi Brad,
I appreciate your answer, but I still disagree...
Keep in mind that I'm not a chocolate producer, I'm just an importer who decided to sell in Australia one of the best chocolate produced in the world, and this is not my definition but is the result of many awards like the Grand Prix of Chocolaterie in Paris, the Olympics of Food in Berlin and IKKA Contest in Salzburg, and of course the Salon du Chocolate.
I'm not saying that chocolate produced with soy lecithing is necessarily a worst product, just that... it's not chocolate how we are used to make it. And we can't hide the fact that many chocolatiers simply use soy lecithing because it's a cheaper and easier way to obtain certain results.
Of course every market is different, and the American market (where the chocolatier I'm talking about is very well appreciated) is certainly different compared to Italy, Belgium or France. But sometimes customers need to be educated to appreciate a better quality product, and even the American market is starting to buy much more dark chocolate compared to the past, thanks to a few Tuscan chocolatier that started to produce milk chocolate up to 70% of cocoa, too (without soy lecithin).
You say the market is the king, and until there will be people in USA willing to spend $250 per kg for our pralines I'm happy to sell this brand... But at the same time I agree more with a business plan who privilege the quality to the quantity and the profit, money is important but not paramount. Lindt is making much more money with their chocolate than the chocolatier I'm talking about, but he would not switch his position with the bigger stockholder of Lindt even at gun point.
Marco;
I understand where you're coming from, but when it comes to recipes and the reasons for ingredients, who says the Europeans have it right? As a businessman selling my wares in Canada, I don't particularly care what other countries do with their chocolate. It's not personal. It's simply thatI'm not selling there. Here in Canada (and in the UK and Switzerland), people like a very creamy,not overly sweetmilk chocolate. The way to do that is obvious - lots of cream, whether it be powdered cream, or powdered skim milk with AMF. In our particular case, I get a fabulous, spray-dried product from a supplier here, and don't have to worry about extra care in the storage, as I would have with AMF. It's a dried product that lasts longer and requires no refrigeration. Our customers are so happy with the recipe I have tried, tested, and put into production, that they often send bars of our milk chocolate to their family in Europe, and return commenting that the recipientslike it better than the chocolate they can get in Europe and have requested more.
Case in point with regard to Italy: Is milk by itself "pure chocolate"? Is sugar by itself "pure chocolate"? What about vanilla? Nope. Nope, and Nope. Yet these ingredients have MUCH higher percentage counts in a "pure chocolate" recipe than lecithin at less than half a percent. Why then can't lecithin be included? It's no more"pure chocolate" than any of the ingredients you listed above. In fact, it's the only NECESSARY ingredientif one creates a recipe with low fluid fat properties (i.e. 70% cocoa beans, 10% cocoa powder, 20% sugar). Having said that, who's to say that Italy has it right either?
When it comes to dark chocolate, we use no lecithin. The CCB content is high enough to give good fluidity, and then we control the viscosity by temperature and crystalization.
Companies like Lindt however (lindt Excellence 70%) need to use lecithin because to increase intensity, they add cocoa powder to the bar on top of the cocoa content. Without lecithin it would be almost impossible to mold. (Note that I'm not saying Lindt 70% is any good. It just so happens to be widely recognized as a "premium" dark chocolate here in Canada.)
They're European. Did they get it right? I'm not sure. I DO know they sell a heck of a lot more every year than my company does! Yes, they're mass producers. However, business is business. Whether you're selling 10 bars, 100 bars, or 1 million bars, you're sellingyour chocolateto make money, and at that moment in time it's no longer about you, or your views. It's about the customer who's willing to PAY to eat your wares, and if they DO pay, then to them you've got it right.
I hope that makes sense, and doesn't come across confrontational. Having been in business for a long time, and been on many chocolate forums, I see all too often,small businesseswho get caught up in politics, terminology, or what "the other guy" is doing, or what "the industry standard" is.
The recipe in the end is very simple: "Find out what your customers want, and give it to them."
Cheers.
Brad
