Ball Mill refiners vs Roller Refiners
Posted in: Chocolate Education
And please forgive my typos as I am traveling and iPad typing is not the easiest.
Forum Activity for @Richard Foley
Posted in: Chocolate Education
And please forgive my typos as I am traveling and iPad typing is not the easiest.
Ball Mill refiners vs Roller Refiners
Posted in: Chocolate Education
On the startup method, I was thinking mote startup of larger volumes, not the small Cocoa town or Alchemy type customer but more small to mid size commercial manufacturers, like Tcho for example. They use Mackentyres, but again I see very few other than the big guys using roller refiners, yet some of the best chocolate from a fineness and consistency comes from the bigh guys. I did a project with Frank Callebaut a few years ago where we spec'd out a million lb a year factory, and in ere we had. Two roll followed by a five roller refiner. I have been buying chocolate for the last 30 years from nearly every major producer in the world, totaling hundreds of millions of pounds, and the roller refiner factories in my opinion, from a consistency, viscosity, fineness, smoothness perspective, have always been the best. One can argue bean origins, flavor profiles, fruitiness, etc, but I like to rely equally on process quality.Yesterday I spent the day at BLT. I was very impressed with the roaster, winnower, and we made chocolate the whole day. This lab style equipment is very top quality, tough as nails. I am not sure if there is a Better way to make small batches of liquor from nibs, as their hammer milling liquor required 3 passes to get to 90 microns from the broken nibs. I would like to find a better way if one exists. From there we Ent on to their ball mill refiner, and made some decent chocolate. I don't quite understand the ball mill finished product (no conching?)........ Every European factory I have been to emphasizes the conching importance. I have more to learn here. Help me out if you know.
Ball Mill refiners vs Roller Refiners
Posted in: Chocolate Education
Ben:
I would be more than happy to share what we're doing. At the moment, if this were a software project, I would characterize it as "we're still in the early design phase, have a direction, and want to do one proof of concept before we open things up to the community." Very definitely when we get to the point that we have our first physical prototype - we'll open it up for community review.
I can tell you that we are working on the impact principle. There is a long way to go from your description of a drill with plates to something that works ("hoping" the beans crack is not an option unless you have an automatic return for uncracked beans on your winnower - otherwise huge amounts of extra manual labor are involved). We actually took a look at four different approaches that I had come up with after talking to a lot of people with a lot of experience cracking cocoa and building machines, and narrowed it down to one approach that we can easily prototype.
There are a bunch of fun challenges to solve, including finding an inexpensive way to control the rate at which the beans enter the cracker. The brute force method the Crankandstein relies on won't work for this method.
Another thing we're set on doing is incorporating a small digital controller - based on an Arduino - so that users can program the speed of the central cracking mechanism as well as the feed mechanism. We'll open source that, too.
Ball Mill refiners vs Roller Refiners
Posted in: Chocolate Education
And to the original topic, I agree with Clay on what most new makers use. I've been in contact with several new makers like myself and all started on santhas or ultras and some have then moved up to larger melangers.
Ball Mill refiners vs Roller Refiners
Posted in: Chocolate Education
Clay,
Any chance you'd give us more info about the bean cracker you're working on? After all, the biggest strength of open source is in the development process--"given enough eyeballs, all bugs are shallow" and all that.
I'm particularly interested as this is something I've been thinking about lately, too. I've read of bean crackers that fling the beans against a metal plate and been thinking of a way to build something like this myself. I'd probably start with metal plates attached to a drill and dropping beans through them. Hopefully, they'd get hit a couple times on the way down.
-Ben
Ball Mill refiners vs Roller Refiners
Posted in: Chocolate Education
Richard:
There are differences in flavor and texture with every different combination of equipment used in the production chain. Most people never have the luxury to experiment with different production methods until they outgrow one and have to step up to a new one.
It's not always true that roll refiners and ball mills are mutually exclusive: I know of one Italian equipment manufacturer that offers a "turnkey" system that includes a roaster, cracker/winnower, roll refiner (used a liquor grinder), AND a ball mill. One of their customers has purchased an old-style melangeur and goes from the ball mill (particle size reduction) to the melangeur (using it like a conche for flavor development).
You will also find a difference between two otherwise identical roll mills - one that uses steel rollers and the other granite.
I've been working with another company that uses a large Indian-sourced wet mill to turn nibs into liquor and then uses a "universal" to convert the liquor, after it has aged, into finished chocolate.
There are some well-known and respected companies that use ball mills: Domori is one; of course, Netzsch's ChocoEasy machines incorporate their ball mils - ball mills are ideally suited to continuous production lines. One of the knocks against most conventional ball mills is uneven particle size distribution. The peak tends to be wider than other methods and their is often a bump in the tail where there are large sizes.
I would have to disagree that most startups use ball mills, though. Apart from the Netzsch machines, which are very expensive - a 50kg machine costs over $90,000 - the only other small ball mill unit I know of is from BLT. At close to $100k their "turnkey" systems are still too expensive for most startups.
My experience is that most startups start out with a small (5kg) kitchen appliance wet grinder and then graduate to one or more of the larger ones as it is comparatively economical to grow the business this way and, because the technique is essentially the same the finished product is not too different. The challenge is the support equipment. Finding comparably scaled (and priced) roasters, crackers, and winnowers is not so easy. I just solved the winnower problem (~50 lbs/hr for about $5k) and am working on an alternative to the most-used small cracker that uses an entirely different principle and should create much smaller quantities of "fines" (which increases yield). I will have a prototype sometime this summer. If it works, we plan to open-source the plans as well as offer it in kit form for those who don't want to build one themselves.
We've corresponded privately about your soon-to-open school in Irvine and I think it's something that's absolutely necessary for the industry. I applaud Qzina for taking the initiative on this. I think that starting small (with respect to batch sizes) and offering the widest possible variety of equipment to work with is a sound approach. Making good chocolate is as much (or more) ART as Science. No one way is better than another; they're all different and can all produce good chocolate. Which way (if any) is better depends on what the desired outcome is.
Ball Mill refiners vs Roller Refiners
Posted in: Chocolate Education
I am researching the differences between making or shall I say refining chcolate and ingredient mixes on a ball mill refiner versus roller refiner process. There seems to be a difference of opinion. I must say the finest chocolate I have tasted most often comes off a roller refined, dry conch and then wet conch system. Recently in researching bean to bar production for our teaching institute opening in Irvine this fall, I find most startups using ball refining. I think this may be due to the abundance of used equipment and a more simple process. Lots of Macintyres and the like on the market, and old conches. I have seen that dry conching is not a possibility with ball refining.
See on this link a study done on ball mill refining if interested. I wish I had more info on the differences between the two. Ideally I would like to setup both systems in our training institute if money permits so we can find our own answers but if you have any opinion or oher scientific input, please let me know.
http://www.aseanfood.info/Articles/11020318.pdf
I would like to see comparable data on roller refined chocolate. Again I go back to the best of the best, and it always seems to come off roller refiners.
updated by @Richard Foley: 04/11/15 09:32:45
Artisan du Chocolat
Posted in: Chocolate Education
Three ways:
1) You can include a short note in a friend request.
2) You can add a comment to their profile and they will be notified that the comment has been added to their profile.
3) If neither 1) or 2) works, ask me to do it. As moderator, I can send messages to everyone.
Artisan du Chocolat
Posted in: Chocolate Education
Sunita:
RE: liquor/liqueur. It's a fairly common mistake, but, regardless, liqueur is only for truly alcoholic beverages.
As for how Gerard is doing what he does, I will leave it to him/Anne to tell the story.
I know search is not great. I added the Google Search box to the home page to address part of the problem and whenever you're looking for members it's best to start out using the search function on the Members page.
:: Clay
Artisan du Chocolat
Posted in: Chocolate Education
On a technical note, is there a way to send a message directly to a member on TCL without being "friends" with them?
Artisan du Chocolat
Posted in: Chocolate Education
Thanks for responding Clay.
And for the "cocoa liquor" correction. I had thought they were used interchangeably. My bad.
Whatever Gerard is doing with whichever machine, he is making some lovely flavor combinations as well as lovely single origin bars. Hence my interest in knowing more of the story.
Good that you mention that they are TCL members. After some searching I realise that "Artisan" is actually Anne Weyns. I will bring the post to her attention. I have not had good luck with the search function on The Chocolate Life.
Artisan du Chocolat
Posted in: Chocolate Education
#1 - Having visited the workshop in Ashford, Kent and spoken at length with Gerard and Anne I can tell you that the liquor is sourced from various companies - it depends on the origin of the liquor. From my memory, the beans are sourced and roasted to their specs and are not "stock" products can be purchased.
#2 - It's properly spelled liquor (cocoa liquor, chocolate liquor), not liqueur.
Origin liquors are pretty widely available, but usually not in small quantities or commitments. There are people who will make them (in relatively small quantities) bespoke for you if you are interested in purchasing them and finishing the chocolate yourself.
Also from the discussion, I know that Gerard is using his chocoeasy in some pretty interesting ways to incorporate his flavors into their chocolates.
Sunita - why don't you ask them to respond to this post directly? They have a membership on TCL.
Artisan du Chocolat
Posted in: Chocolate Education
Thank you Masur.
Any idea where their cacao liqueur is being produced? Is single origin liqueur widely available on the market? Or is this something they source specifically for their purposes?
Sunita
Artisan du Chocolat
Posted in: Chocolate Education
L'artisan du Chocolat is not bean to bar. Theystart withcacao liqueur.
"L'artisan du Chocolat uses the ChocoEasy50 to produce fine, specialty chocoaltes."
Artisan du Chocolat
Posted in: Chocolate Education
I am wondering if anyone has more information on the practises and sourcing (of cacao bean or liquor?) employed by Artisan du Chocolat.
Their bars are very enjoyable and their inclusion bars are very tasty and reasonably priced. However, I am having a hard time determining whether this company is bean-to-bar? If yes, are all their bars bean to bar? Or only their single origins? Does this company buy cacao liqueur from a third party? Are they working with local folks in country of bean origin to do some value add on site?
From what I gather from their website, their Vietnam bar sounds like it may be processed into cacao liqueur (in Vietnam?) and then conched and refined in Ashford?
from Artisan du Chocolat site:
"Dark chocolate 72% bar made with Vietnamese ground Trinitario cocoa beans, conched and refined at our production in Ashford."
Thank you in advance for anything you might be able to add to this question.
Sunita de Tourreil
The Chocolate Garage
updated by @Sunita de Tourreil: 04/20/15 01:25:55
The Chocolate Garage: Palo Alto
Posted in: Allow Me to Introduce Myself
Hello everyone,
Clay Gordon asked me moons ago to go ahead and introduce myself, since I own and operate a small chocolate business in Silicon Valley. Somehow time has kept slipping away-- typical of operating a new business I suppose.
I am Sunita de Tourreil, Founder of The Chocolate Garage . I am an enthusiastic supporter of what I call "Happy Chocolate". I have a small business that primarily organizes chocolate tasting events in and around the San Francisco Bay Area. These tastings focus on education (how and where cacao is grown, how chocolate is made) and after leading a blind tasting, I tell the stories behind the chocolate makers. I tend to focus on local artisanal makers who are part of 'Nouveau American' chocolate, redefining the way chocolate is made and pushing the envelope especially in terms of transparency.
Our emphasis is on "Happy Chocolate", by which I mean chocolate that is having a positive impact on both the planet and it's people, especially cacao farming communities. Our mission is to make Happy Chocolate more available and give people ways to make chocolate choices that support and nurture the small farmer and the high quality chocolate industry.
I have found the community that Clay has fostered here at The Chocolate Life invaluable in my own chocolate education and I hope to be able to contribute even a fraction of what I have received from The Chocolate Life.
Sincerely,
Sunita de Tourreil
updated by @Sunita de Tourreil: 04/16/15 04:17:51
Organic cacao liquor in bulk in the US / Canada ?
Posted in: Classifieds ARCHIVE
I am waiting for a quote and some info from Icam. They have a sales office in LA, made in Italy,, also I was told that Guittard has an organiic liquor, do you need FT or just Organic?
Organic cacao liquor in bulk in the US / Canada ?
Posted in: Classifieds ARCHIVE
Hello Richard,
Thanks for the reply. Would like to learn more. I can send you some details and would like to learn more about what you have and Icam. Perhaps we can get some samples send to our warehouse in Blaine, WA.
Organic cacao liquor in bulk in the US / Canada ?
Posted in: Classifieds ARCHIVE
Thanks Jeff. I have sent you a message with more details of our needs.
Organic cacao liquor in bulk in the US / Canada ?
Posted in: Classifieds ARCHIVE
We can supply you with organic liquor or put you in touch with Icam. They have fair trade and organic liquor and chocolate. I have samples in my office at Qzina in LA. Nice stuff.
Organic cacao liquor in bulk in the US / Canada ?
Posted in: Classifieds ARCHIVE
If you would like to source this directly from Ecuador for shipment into the US or Canada, let me know. I can get product made to your specs with your chosen variety of beans from Ecuador (Arriba/Naciona, CCN-51, or a blend.) Please contact me here on thechocolatelife.com
Organic cacao liquor in bulk in the US / Canada ?
Posted in: Classifieds ARCHIVE
We are currently looking for additional supply of organic and fair trade cacao liquor and are wondering if anyone on The Chocolate Life located in the US or Canada could offer us supply in the 25KG + (up to pallet quantities) of a very good quality cacao liquor? We have worked with Dominican, Peruvian and Costa Rican liquor, but are also interested in other origins.
We have warehousing in Washington state and are also located in British Columbia Canada, so shipping in either country is possible.
Thanks! Kent
updated by @Kent Goodwin: 04/07/25 13:00:14
Peppy pumper for JKV wheel machine
Posted in: Classifieds ARCHIVE
Richard, Thank you for your reply. I think I understand. Currently I am seeding my machine continuously with tempered solid chocolate to add more chocolate as my tank runs low. I imagine I will not be able to add quick enough and keep chocolate in temper and be productive when using a pump. What do you recommend to melt chocolate to add to my JKV? Also does this melted chocolate need to be in temper that is added to the machine? Thank you for your help!
Peppy pumper for JKV wheel machine
Posted in: Classifieds ARCHIVE
I have worked with JKV and all the clones of that machine. As it not a true tempering machine, you have to control tempering and crystallization manually. Therefore I would be nervous about increasing volume or more movement as risk of over crystallization in a small batch. We have many many customers using this style machine for molding, and capacity is never an issue on the flow of chocolate to the spout. Are you talking about feeding the J.k.v from an external melter to keep full. If so, not a bad idea, as long as you can manage to keep all in temper. Most just continuer topping up the JKV using a bowl, and the slightly warmer chocolate added mixes in usually just as he JKV tank is starting to over crystalize, so once you get the hang of it, it works well as you are balancing out your batch. You will notice over time the JKV batch will thicken due to over crystalized chocolate and thus you have to increase the thermostat temp or add in some untempered chocolate to kill off some of the over tempered chocolate crystals.
Peppy pumper for JKV wheel machine
Posted in: Classifieds ARCHIVE
Has anyone attached a chocolate pump, such as the Wahl Peppy Pumper, to a JKV wheel type chocolate tempering machine? If so does this increase productivity? Make for cleaner production? Any thoughts? Thank you.
updated by @Sheri Weedman: 04/07/25 13:00:14
Sourcing Ecuadorian Cacao
Posted in: Travels & Adventures
Do you supply small batches of fermented cocoa beans? About 10lb?
Sourcing Ecuadorian Cacao
Posted in: Travels & Adventures
Can you sell me Nacional pods ready for planting the beans? Is their other heirloom varieties available or is Nacional the only "heirloom" variety?Thanks!Chad
Sourcing Ecuadorian Cacao
Posted in: Travels & Adventures
Ecuador is the worlds largest grower of fine flavor cocoa. This comes with a caveat, however; if you dont know your way around you can easily end up with a mix of true Nacional beans and CCN-51, or CCN-51 beans being passed off as something else, which will in turn affect the final quality of your product. Also, you need to know if the beans youre buying have been properly fermented and dried. If youre interested in visiting Ecuador just to get to know the cocoa and chocolate industry up close, or to buy beans direct from the source, or a bit of both, please give me a shout. I have over 5 years experience in Ecuador in the cocoa/chocolate industry and numerous industry contacts at all levels. I also offer training in chocolate and confectionery (specifically pralines/filled chocolates, enrobing, etc) and can custom tailor an itinerary to meet your needs. We are experienced in logistics and import/export as well to help expedite delivery of your beans.
updated by @Jeff Stern: 04/29/15 05:35:28
Lloveras Conches
Posted in: Tech Help, Tips, Tricks, Techniques
Anyone out there with experience with Lloveras conches (Spanish made)? Please let me know if you have worked with them. Thanks!
updated by @Jeff Stern: 04/11/25 09:27:36
alternative to mycryo
Posted in: Tech Help, Tips, Tricks, Techniques
Hi,
i have used Mycryo to set a raspberry mousse with no gelatin, it works very well if you keep the temperature under-control otherwise it will split (almost like when you make pound cake and the eggs are too cold).
So start with a rather warmer base (depend on your recipe..) and then add your Mycryo in.
I have tried to replace Mycryo with just "Microplaned" cocoa butter and it works fine in pastry application.
If you would like to have a very fine powder, a simple trick: Temper CB, put in a spray gun and spray into a tray, scrape, put in a container and there you should have a fine powdered cocoa butter...
alternative to mycryo
Posted in: Tech Help, Tips, Tricks, Techniques
Most of the mycryo benefit is that it is in powder form. Cacao butter is hard to find in small morsels so lots of chefs use mycryo....tres expensive but convenient. We sell Bo at Qzina. We also offer about the smallest morsel size of cocoa butter I have seen. The c butter chips run about e size of 6000 ct Choc chips, so quite small. We sell a lot as alternate to mycryo or for tempering and spraying. Athough as a gelatin replacement, not sure. Have you tried agar, or vegetable gelatin, those work well also.
alternative to mycryo
Posted in: Tech Help, Tips, Tricks, Techniques
Clay, I use normal tempered CB regularly and have noticed no discernible difference. Caveat: I have only used it for tempering, not as a thickener for desserts.
However, from what I remember of the Valrhona class, it really didn't matter as it was used for its solidification properties rather that its tempering properties, and it could be melted to just about any temperature.
alternative to mycryo
Posted in: Tech Help, Tips, Tricks, Techniques
Cheebs -
Don't you think tempered cocoa butter will work a little differently? My understanding is that the crystals in Mycryo are pretty much all Form VI which accounts for their "aggressiveness" in setting up.
I don't have much experience using Mycryo in pastry, just in savory.
:: Clay
alternative to mycryo
Posted in: Tech Help, Tips, Tricks, Techniques
Absolutely! Just temper your cocoa butter as if it were chocolate and mold into blocks or whatever you want. Grate with a Microplane. Voila! Mycryo substitute for much less!
alternative to mycryo
Posted in: Tech Help, Tips, Tricks, Techniques
Can regular cocoa butter be used in place of Mycryo?
For instance, to set a fruit mousse or a cold cheesecake. Instead of using gelatin I have used Mycryo, however it is very expensive. Thanks .
updated by @Tom Early: 04/11/25 09:27:36
Packaging chocolate bars
Posted in: Tech Help, Tips, Tricks, Techniques
Hi,
Is there such a thing as a small machine that will package chocolate bars in foil and paper wrappers? What I've seen online is huge machines that do large volumes or instructions on how to wrap by hand. I'm wondering if there's a small scale version of a machine to do the chocolate packaging.
Thanks,
Geetha
updated by @Geetha Panchapakesan: 04/11/25 09:27:36
Cemoi
Posted in: Opinion
Hi Folks,
A few quick questions about Cemoi couverture,
- What is it like to work with?
- How does it stack up compared to other couvertures on the market?
- Would you recommend this brand?
Thanks,
Stu
updated by @Stu Jordan: 04/19/15 17:20:24
Questions regarding tempering & molding
Posted in: Tech Help, Tips, Tricks, Techniques
I find when tempering by seeding that it is not necessary to go down to 80, try testing for temper at 86, you may be happily surprised. The mark of 80 degrees, in my experience, refers to tabliering where you are creating the stable crystals vs. Seeding where you are introducing the stable crystals. I can usually temper by seeding in roughly 15 minutes with a fair amount of chocolate. Another tip, try to have a large chunk of factory tempered chocolate and introduce that after your 20%, this will help to drop your temp a little further and will be easy to remove when you are satisfied that you are in temper.
Questions regarding tempering & molding
Posted in: Tech Help, Tips, Tricks, Techniques
Thanks for the tips. I'll try them this weekend. TheChicago house co-op is a great idea 
. I still seem to be having trouble when using the seed method to temper.I get the temperature up to about 115 Fthen use 20%by weight for seeding which helps drop the temperature to about 95 F but it takes forever (orit just seems like it )for the temperature to drop down to 80F (Then I bring it back up to 86 F to work with it). Any tips on helping the chocolate cool faster?
Questions regarding tempering & molding
Posted in: Tech Help, Tips, Tricks, Techniques
Hi Jo-Ellen,
I live near the Minn/Wis border, and I'm going to strongly encourage you, as others have, to take a class at either the French Pastry School or Callebaut Chocolate Academy, both in Chicago. I've taken classes both places, and they are both excellent, friendly, and immensely helpful. (Anyone want to start a student housing co-op for chocolate students in Chicago?)
I'd also agree with others on the melt by microwave option. It's much faster (pretty much blister free). I have a microwave that has a hotspot (maybe all of them do, I don't know). So I melt 30-40 seconds at a time at first, stirring between, and then 20-30 secs. as I go. Once you have chocolate melted, you can temper it via seeding, and then use a heat pack (from your local Walgreens) that you warm in the microwave to keep it workable for longer. Or, you can zap the bowl back in the microwave for 5-10 seconds at a time and stir, to keep it workable longer also.
Questions regarding tempering & molding
Posted in: Tech Help, Tips, Tricks, Techniques
Tempering ....time temperature, movement. There are several ways to do it, but practice makes perfect. If you google it, you will find lots of info, and a good video by Jacues Torre. We also have tempering info at www.Qzina.com if you need to print out.
Questions regarding tempering & molding
Posted in: Tech Help, Tips, Tricks, Techniques
Hi Jo-Ellen, I melt all of my chocolate in the microwave either in glass or plastic. Go slowly with the melting process and remove the chocolate and stir it and check the temperature along the way to avoid scorching until you know how your microwave performs. I may be cursing myself but I've never scorched chocolate in themicrowave. I worry about water/steam with the bain marie. I sawyour comment above about taking a class somewhere. In Chicago you can check The French Pastry School - I just took an advanced course there with Jean Pierre Wybauw but I know they offer classes at different levels.I think there is also a Callebaut programsomewhere in Chicagoas well. Good luck! Andrea